Are cars too fast?

"CB" (jrcb) 09/26/2016 at 18:12 • Filed to: Discussion

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Simple question. We have plenty of vehicles hitting sixty in under six seconds, plenty more with top speeds above 200 km/h (or 124 miles per hour), which has me wondering: is this too much?

I doubt that most commuters and drivers use cars to their full potential, but why do we allow vehicles to travel as fast as they do when there is no way that those performance figures can really be done legally? I mean, other than certain states that allow for vehicles to drive 135 km/h (85 mph), is there really much of a need for most cars to go faster than 150 km/h? Should there be restrictions put in place? Just in general, have we reached a point where cars are too fast for our own good?

jimz > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:14

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No, I don’t think so. But what it has led to is a mindset (especially amongst automotive “journalists”) that anything with less than 300 hp is “underpowered.” I hazily remember reading an article where someone used the “underpowered” term to describe the 2.0T Fusion.

Nibby > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:14

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It is a bit scary that a V6 Accord and V6 Camry can do 0-60 in under 6 seconds.

Though knowing Camry drivers, it is rare to witness a Camry doing more than 35mph

Manuél Ferrari > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:17

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No

TheHondaBro > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:17

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All I see is some strong detergent in the gene pool.

CB > jimz 09/26/2016 at 18:18

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Excellent point. In my mind, anything that hits 60 in under seven or seven and a half seconds is fast.

I’m currently driving a 2003 Maxima with somewhere around 250 horsepower (I think?), and I think that’s more than enough power for the average person.

TheHondaBro > Nibby 09/26/2016 at 18:18

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I saw a Camry go airborne through an intersection once. Anything is possible.

CB > Manuél Ferrari 09/26/2016 at 18:18

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Why do you think so?

Tekamul > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:18

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Pissing contest-based marketing and mags have brought us here. HP numbers, torque numbers, towing numbers, 0-60, top speed.

It would probably be better for everyone involved if it was instead a pissing contest of reduced mass, stopping distances and agile reflexes.

mazda616 > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:19

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Yes.

The #1 complaint about my car (2016 Mazda6) online is that “is too slow” and “doesn’t have enough power.” It does 0-60 in 7 seconds flat and tops out at 135 MPH. Honestly, I don’t know how much more you could want from a family sedan used for commuting and hauling a kid.

mazda616 > jimz 09/26/2016 at 18:19

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This. See my above comment about my car.

Urambo Tauro > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:23

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Manufacturers feel the need to produce “better” numbers than whatever they had last year, for no other reason but to improve sales. I would prefer to see some consistency, but competition keeps pushing them to escalate things not only in speed, but also in the truck world of ever- increasing capacities. I don’t think it’s going to stop any time soon.

CB > TheHondaBro 09/26/2016 at 18:23

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While that’s great, I’d really rather not get hit by a Camry going 150.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:24

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in a word, no.

let me elaborate:

My daily driver is a modded GLI. it makes 360hp (300 to the wheels) and will easily drag it’s ass to 60MPH in under 5 seconds (with a good launch). The top speed of it is estimated in the 170-mph range. now, I’ve never attempted, and will never attempt to hit that speed, but something that I love about my car is the ability to put my foot to the floor in 3rd, or 4th on the highway and have instant acceleration to pass any slowpoke who does 60 in the left lane. I will also gladly say that the car regularly sees triple-digit speeds.

Do I think my car’s fast? nope!

A truly fast car is something with 500hp/torque, that can accelerate to
speeds double the speed limit without as much as breaking a sweat. The fastest car i’ve ever had the pleasure of driving is a 700wheel hp modified ZR1 Corvette. that thing was a damn fast car, but i see how many would struggled with driving one.

most commuter cars (4-cylinder camrys, accords, mazda6's...) have enough power to get out of their own way, and to accelerate reasonably quickly, but I still believe that they are not fast cars. only reason why family cars of yore didn’t go that fast is because they ran out of gearing by 120-130mph.

I don’t think cars are too fast, I just think drivers are too slow. if there was better driver education in the US (with mandatory evasive maneuver courses, and road-rage avoidance training) the roads would be a much better place

I also suggest common-sense class, because sadly so many drivers lack it these days.

TheHondaBro > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:24

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No one who buys a Camry is going to go 150mph.

CB > TheHondaBro 09/26/2016 at 18:27

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Counterpoint.

But seriously, as easy as it is to say “let people sort themselves out, if they crash and die it’s their fault”, there’s always a chance that someone going too fast is going to slam into someone else. I’d rather not leave that to chance.

Tareim - V8 powered > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:29

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I do agree as at some point in the future these 400bhp super sedans (bmw/mercedes) are going to be the hands in the everyday person including those who have just recently passed their test, it will be dangerous

jimz > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:29

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to put it into perspective, the 1970 E-Body (Barracuda and Challenger) with the 440 or 426 Hemi were doing 0-60 in the low sixes.

McMike > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:30

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CB > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 09/26/2016 at 18:30

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Okay, they may not be hypercars, but when they’re in areas that have maximum speed limits of 85 miles per hour, isn’t that a little overkill? And while I agree that better driver training would be great, odds are good that people might not take it seriously and still drive like hooligans.

yamahog > Tekamul 09/26/2016 at 18:30

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we do have a federally-mandated pissing contest on EPA ratings, which has led to some fun new lightweighting measures, and stopping distances are totally a pissing contest in the performance world.

citizennick > Tekamul 09/26/2016 at 18:30

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This. While I love how competition is making cars like the Camaro/Mustang/Challenger better, it’s gotten to the point to where it’s getting excessive.

TheHondaBro > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:31

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That’s as much a Camry as this is a Tacoma:

CB > McMike 09/26/2016 at 18:31

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Hey, government paternalism and regard for safety isn’t a bad thing.

CB > TheHondaBro 09/26/2016 at 18:32

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Hence why I added “but seriously”. Also, I meant 150 as in kilometres an hour.

CB > Tareim - V8 powered 09/26/2016 at 18:33

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You can buy a Genesis sedan that’ll hit sixty in under five seconds for around $22k right now. I completely agree.

404 - User No Longer Available > jimz 09/26/2016 at 18:34

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Everything weighing a metric fuckton may have something to do with it. A “compact” sedan these days sometimes weigh more than a midsize years ago.

lone_liberal > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:35

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I was wondering something similar the other day. I was wondering if there is really any reason for the manufacturers of cars like the Mustang and Camaro to keep increasing the horsepower of their base V8 cars. They already have well over 400hp do they need to keep going? When is enough enough for a street car?

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:35

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it is a little overkill, but so are many other things in day to day life. for example, that 1000 calorie burrito you can get at chipotle? if that’s not overkill, then I’m diabetic....

I get what you’re saying though, I just believe that a decent ammount of power (around 300hp/tq) is necessary to make driving safe, since some manouvers may be unsafe if they take too much time to execute.

And yeah, people probably wouldn’t take it seriously, but i guess that you just have to drill it in to their heads? like, have a simulated crash, or have a class in which you’d randomly blow up an airbag next to people to scare the shit out of them! like, if i witnessed a high speed crash test in person, i’d be more afraid to speed.

CB > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 09/26/2016 at 18:38

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I’m even going to call 250hp/tq enough, since that’s what I have and it’s plenty fast to be safe. And as it has also been raised, braking and handling should factor into safety and selling points, too.

I doubt it. In driver’s ed I saw enough crashes and testimony from people who had killed others or been seriously maimed in accidents high speed accidents. Do I think it was effective? Not really.

Tripper > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:42

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Nope, speed limits are too low and driving tests are too easy.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:51

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A Camry V6 hits 60 in the mid 5 second range, let that sink in.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > mazda616 09/26/2016 at 18:53

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Counterpoint: A 2002 Trailblazer is quicker than that.

Nibby > TheHondaBro 09/26/2016 at 18:53

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Those bumper dents and dings provide for the weight reduction required for lift.

Flavien Vidal > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:54

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The problem has never been how FAST cars can go, but how quickly they reach certain speeds. Few people crash because they are going too fast (they make the news though) but many crash while losing control during an acceleration.

MLGCarGuy > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:59

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I think that most average cars are adequate; most drivers never use the power but I think that having it is good, since it’ll help with passing or avoiding accidents.

My car on the other hand is underpowered and is almost a safety hazard.

jtso > CB 09/26/2016 at 18:59

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Cars aren’t too fast, drivers are too slow or don’t want to be involved in looking where they’re going. The number of people with V8s here (Texas) that can’t seem to manage 60mph on the highway is ridiculous.

Amoore100 > CB 09/26/2016 at 19:05

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I do think it’s an American thing. Only here do we have minivans capable of 0-60 in 7 seconds and four-door Japanese family sedans going 0-60 in 5.5 seconds. In Europe, their best-seller is still the Golf, and the bulk-of-the-sales-volume petrol and diesel variants make the 0-100kph sprint in anywhere between 9 and 12 seconds, which isn’t exactly what I’d call blistering. That’s not even considering pretty much all of Asia where anything under 15 seconds to 60 is considered fast. Also, many other places have much more punitive tax systems which impede the sales of such incredibly powerful machines as the V6 Camry. Combine all those factors and it’s only America where speed is valued so highly in even the most ordinary of cars. I do think it’s simply unnecessary. When I first asked about buying my V50 2.4i, everyone here warned that it would be slow as hell and that I’d consistently regret it, but to be honest I’ve never missed the power. When I’m getting on the freeway or whatever, I simply flick it into ‘Tiptronic’ mode and bump it down a gear. Sure, the revs soar and the five cylinder gets considerably louder, but I take it as all part of the experience. It’s like people are scared of using more than 25% of their car’s abilities nowadays, whereas I’m regularly using around 75% of it while still being a safe, law-abiding citizen. After all, it’s always more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

CB > MLGCarGuy 09/26/2016 at 19:06

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So, would you say there should be a minimum threshold of performance of a vehicle?

My bird IS the word > CB 09/26/2016 at 19:17

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I worry, since that was a big part of what killed the muscle car: high insurance premiums. I don’t think most regular consumers ever use that power though . I wait ages for people to caaaarefully step on the gas.

CB > My bird IS the word 09/26/2016 at 19:19

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I hadn’t thought about that. So in ten or fifteen years when the current crop of cars become cheaper for new drivers to buy, insurance premiums might skyrocket due to “cheap power” (even though it’s a Camry).

MLGCarGuy > CB 09/26/2016 at 19:41

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Probably. Reviewers have noted that cars like the Mirage are scary to drive due to their sheer lack of power. But then another issue arises because, what is the definition of minimum?

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > CB 09/26/2016 at 19:47

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If my car had been restricted, I wouldn’t have been able to safely pass a row of slow-moving cars on a two lane road in the middle of nowhere by accelerating up to 125.

Wacko > MLGCarGuy 09/26/2016 at 19:47

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But the mirage, Yaris, smart, micra.... are all city cars. They were not made for highway use, just like a 50cc scooter.

Probenja > CB 09/26/2016 at 19:48

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I always wonder why people in the US always ask for more power, they are like “200 hp” that is way too low, my car has 700+ hp. And then they drive on highways that are clogged with cars driving 60 mph most of the time.

Here in Chile the average is around 100 hp and I always see people driving little citycars (Spark’s, Swift’s, Rio’s) going 100 mph in the highway because there is room to do that. Yes it might be noisy but it will get over legal speeds if you really want them to (speed limit is 75 mph here).

I’m guessing the whole muscle car era and the HP race has trickled down to american commuter cars, where in most of the world you are very lucky if your commuter car has more than 200 hp (our fastest Camry has 200 hp and it’s the Hybrid).

TL:DR American’s need to stop whining.

MLGCarGuy > Wacko 09/26/2016 at 19:52

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That’s true. I use my car to drive around town, but in the event I need to take the freeway, I have to go full throttle to get to merging speed.

Stephenson Valve Gear > Tripper 09/26/2016 at 20:13

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I agree on both counts. It is ridiculous to travel out west where the highway stretches to the horizon with just a few random cars sprinkled here and there, and be limited to 75 MPH. On the other hand, I think that a tiered license system might not be a bad thing. Let drivers get experience with lower horsepower cars first. If they want to legally drive a high powered vehicle - whatever that definition might be - then attend classes and demonstrate proficiency in tests that are geared toward performance vehicles.

Maxima Speed > CB 09/26/2016 at 20:15

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The speed of many commuter cars is a bye-product of high gearing. For instance, let’s use my 1997 maxima as an example (granted not the best example because it’s a v6, I can actually speak with some accuracy about its performance because I have one). The 97 maxima has a factory quoted top speed of 135mph. My particular car has a 4 speed auto transmission, this allows gearing allows the car to sit at 2000 rpm’s at 60 mph, and 3000 rpm’s at 85 mph in top gear. If my car were fitted with the same number of gears and was gear limited to 85 I would probably have better acceleration but at the cost of running 6500 rpm’s in top gear which would reduce fuel economy greatly. Lower rpm’s Usually means higher gas mileage. Now having said all that why don’t they have electronic speed limiters? I’m not sure.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > CB 09/26/2016 at 20:20

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I think almost all new cars in the US have escaped the death sentence of being “underpowered.”

There are hardly any new cars that you would feel are absolutely dangerous to attempt a highway merge with.

Back in the 90s you could still get crapboxes with 80 hp--you would have to give it everything just to get up to merge speed.

As to whether new cars are overpowered, that is much more subjective and depends on the car’s actual usage environment. For fun driving on my local back roads IMO 300-ish is the sweet spot (my car has about 400). Some feel that their daily driven ‘16 Mustang GTs could use more power. I hope to never meet them.

IMO, a car with about 150-170 hp is perfect for normal usage on public roads.

Manuél Ferrari > CB 09/26/2016 at 20:21

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Because power is good

Power is life

Power is love

Controlling ourselves and only using the power when safe and appropriate is up to us. We can’t blame the cars for having the extra power.

The closest I ever got to death was in an under powered car. I will never be in that situation again. Give me more power 10 out of 10 times.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > CB 09/26/2016 at 20:41

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The problem with that kind of power is you never get to use it. I kinda like that my Fit, and even my Galant are under powered for what they are. It means I can “drive it fast” without actually driving all that fast. Although on he Galant I really can’t even run out 1st in town 7000rpm is about 38mph.

random001 > CB 09/26/2016 at 20:41

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Hey! I’ve been driving for over 20 years, and I have 4.8 s 0-60 Genesis. I’m so dangerous....

CB > random001 09/26/2016 at 20:45

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The point wasn’t that driving a powerful vehicle is dangerous, it’s that a cheap and powerful vehicle in the hands of someone with little experience can possibly be dangerous.

bhtooefr > MLGCarGuy 09/26/2016 at 21:02

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Some of that is people not knowing how to carry momentum (in my 1.6 liter VW diesels, which had far worse power to weight ratios than the Mirage, the key was NEVER LIFT), some of that is crap road design, and then some of that is simply that people are used to fast vehicles, and therefore aren’t considerate to slow vehicles.

The solution isn’t banning slow vehicles, it’s more of them.

bhtooefr > Probenja 09/26/2016 at 21:05

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Hell, in Europe, you’re often lucky if your commuter car has more than 150.

But, yeah, this is really an American problem, where cheap V6s have been the norm for ages, and modern technology has made the V6 fast .

random001 > CB 09/26/2016 at 21:10

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I know. I was just messing with you. Sadly, there are plenty of dangerous kids in 150 HP Civics, too.

CB > random001 09/26/2016 at 21:11

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True, hence why it’s more expensive to insure a Civic or Accord or Lancer or whatever for my age group than it is to insure a new Focus ST or a Mustang GT.

bhtooefr > CB 09/26/2016 at 21:23

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I mean, we’ve reached a point where people are complaining about 155 hp in a Miata . Like, going into a rage about how it’s lost 12 horsepower compared to the old one. (Fun fact, though, it’s actually faster than the old one.)

One thing that helps, at least, is that to reduce tire costs, most of the family cars with high-powered engines (like the Camry) have relatively low speed limiters, in the 115-130 MPH range. That helps. As far as your suggestion of a 150 km/h limit, there’s areas where the normal flow of traffic actually is that fast, or more, and I don’t think the NHTSA mandating a limiter that low would fly very well (or it’d just be removed even if it did go into law).

And, I mean, I’ve had a 1.6 liter diesel Golf, with 52 hp, up to 90 MPH indicated, and it still had a couple MPH to go. I’ve had a 1.6 liter Miata, with 116 hp when it was new, a lot less then, up to 120 MPH indicated, following another car.

The rate of acceleration that’s expected of modern cars is really a problem, though - people now expect a car to hit 60 in under 6 seconds, they call something that takes 10 seconds to get to 60 “dangerously slow”...

Road designs don’t help, there’s a lot of braindead ones that mean you have almost no room to merge, but they’re not everything. Because an average family sedan is something that 30 years ago could have been sold as a high end sports car, normal people have no courtesy to people that are in slow cars, and don’t get out of the way - there’s been many a time in my 1.6 liter Golf that I could have made a merge, if it weren’t for a moron in a large displacement V6 that thinks that ramps aren’t for accelerating.

And, don’t believe me about average commuter cars being 30 years ago’s high end sports cars?

Car and Driver got 5.8 seconds to 60 out of a 2015 Camry XSE V6.

They got 6.0 out of a 1985 Corvette.

Even the hybrid gets to 60 in 7.2 seconds, and the base model in 8.0 seconds.

Shankems > CB 09/26/2016 at 21:32

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A car is only too fast if it is spinning its super sticky tires off in third.

mazda616 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 09/26/2016 at 21:58

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But, my car has a fully functioning gauge cluster, a door that hasn’t caught on fire, and side airbags that don’t randomly deploy for no reason. Unlike the TrailBlazers.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > mazda616 09/26/2016 at 22:02

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Ours was fine... Other than the transmission.

V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! > CB 09/26/2016 at 22:09

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With the added power today has come added weight. Technological and safety advancements have made the average car much heavier as well.

Take the V6 and transmission from a brand new Accord and put them in a 1987 model. That would be a fast car for most people.

Also; fast is relative. Drive a 600 hp car every day and accelerate from 0-60 at full power on a regular basis and one will see this as the norm.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > CB 09/26/2016 at 23:02

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I think cars have gotten too fast. I have a friend, little interest in cars, loves the mustang. “well they have a 4 and 6 cylinder, that have plenty of power” “nah I can’t buy it without a V-8, but then I cant drive it in the winter”. Point is people are drunk on power to an extant, 75% which goes unused. Oh the times we live when 330hp is the mid-range option.

I think the bigger issue is people have gotten too acclimated to driving too fast due to a giant reduction in NVH over the last 20 years. This leads to people not paying attention while driving and showing no interest in that they’re hurtling forward at 70+mph.

CB > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 09/26/2016 at 23:06

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I think your point about not noticing how fast you’re going is an excellent one. In the Maxima I can do 120 km/h all day, no problem (although highway cruises are usually 110-115), and still converse with people in the car around me. That kind of bubble being created can definitely be a problem when it comes to judging your own speed.

duurtlang > Amoore100 09/27/2016 at 02:05

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It’s funny that you use the V50 2.4i as an example of a ‘slow’ car. If I’m not mistaken it was the third gas engine for the V50 here. As in, 2 steps above base engine. One of my best friends just bought a fully loaded early V50 with the 2.0 diesel (about 138 up) and the 6 speed. That too is a step above the base 1.6 diesel. It’s plenty fast, even on the German unrestricted autobahn. It will do 200 kmh all day long. 0-100 (62 mph) in about 9.5 or so. More than sufficient for a commuter/family car.

duurtlang > Probenja 09/27/2016 at 02:09

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I guess it’s because gasoline is so comically cheap in the US. That, and poor road design (requiring a skilled driver OR an overabundance of power) and boring long straights causing a focus on power rather than handling.

duurtlang > CB 09/27/2016 at 02:25

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This takes me back to the 2016 Impala Limited I rented in the US last July. That car was an utter econobox. Every corner cut. Cheapened to the core. Interior quality of a 25 year old subcompact in a design that looked, inside and out, about 20 years old. Yet it had 300+ HP. The combination of cutting every corner and installing a 300+ HP motor was absolutely ridiculous.

So this joke of a car with 300+ HP was fast when pushed. However, it never invited me to drive fast. Because of how it drives it invited you to cruise slowly. It’s the polar opposite to my ‘88 Peugeot 205 GTi 1.6. The Peugeot has hardly more than a third of the power and is certainly much slower in a straight line, yet it’s a car you actually drive much faster in real life. It invites you to.

I consider that Impala to be a bit of a clown car to be honest.

Tristan > Tareim - V8 powered 09/27/2016 at 03:43

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400 horsepower family sedans with traction and stability control that can’t be turned off, aggressive torque management that makes it feel closer to 220-ish horsepower, automatic transmissions, antilock brakes and obscene curb weights.

It’s fairly difficult for the average moron to get in too much trouble, and what looks like a 400 hp murder machine on paper equates to a total pooch in real life.

random001 > CB 09/27/2016 at 07:34

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An excellent point.

Amoore100 > duurtlang 09/27/2016 at 18:25

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Haha, that’s another aspect of my argument which I was trying to highlight, thanks for bringing it up. Indeed, cars here which are ‘slow’ are far more than sufficient elsewhere in the world. I’m really not sure what purpose such speed serves us here in the States anyways since most Altima drivers just trudge around blocking the left lane at 45mph...